TheMommyBlog

Please don’t be so hard on yourself. I’ve said it a million times, it’s far too easy to say something flippant without realizing.

While I do quite enjoy Momversation it seems to me that most of the controversy is based around someone being misrepresented. Dana comes off sounding mean, Heather is… on and on and it’s just stupid! This is why I prefer to write. I can write something, go away and come back and be sure it’s what I mean. In real life if you say something it’s out there and there’s nothing you can do about it.

It strikes me that who ever edits the vids is looking for the most controversial comments and while that’s good for Momversation it’s not good for the panelists. If you’re having a bad day or just find your mouth running away with yourself you should be able to count on someone not taking the absolute worst thing you’ve said in recent history and making it public.

I just saw your tweets and read this and it really is OK. I closed comments because I saw that on a previous post you had put a quick ‘mea culpa’ in your comments and noted that you also cringed when you saw the Momversation video. Also, the conversation had run its course. I think I also mentioned in my own comments that there is editing and I know that I’m not the first person to see an episode and think, ‘Gee, that could have been done a bit better’. What I wrote was my gut reaction and I didn’t know that many people also felt that way. For me; it was like taking the Us vs. Them in the moms and non-moms and kicking it up a notch as it came across as those who haven’t given birth weren’t women and those who had were. Clearly, I have very strong feelings on what it means to be a woman and so I snapped.

Now I’m blathering but I’m sorry as well. I really hope you aren’t being too hard on yourself because in the grand scheme of things - especially in the blogosphere - people have said/done MUUUUUCH worse. This really is nothing. And the apology was totally unnecessary of course now I’m feeling like an ass for making you feel bad. Such is life. But really, it’s all good.

Thank you for leaving a comment on my site and for explaining the context of what was said.  I admit, I was irritated by the video but rather than just sounding off on my blog, I should have come here and asked for clarification.  That would have been more fair.

I really have enjoyed your writing and your participation in the Momversation videos, so I should have known better than to think that you meant to say what it sounded like you said.  (Could that have been more rambling or harder to follow?)

Anyway, no hard feelings and please don’t give it another thought.  *hugs*

Personally, I loved the quote and I used it in my own blog that same day.  And I said thanks to on there for saying it so perfectly! http://www.mommysjoy.com/2009/03/02/last-week-on-momversation-are-you-ok-with-your-post-baby-body/  You may think you know your body before your pregnant and before you give birth but it’s not until you really see what it’s capable of do you realize what being a woman is all about.  So I say good job!!!  You didn’t say it to be offensive, you were just trying to explain a point that is very hard to explain. 

I heard you and I understood where you were going with it.  And I appreciate you saying it so openly without tightening up the filter between your brain and your mouth.  Sometimes the best points are made like that.

Smiles,
Joy

Awww—I know what you meant!

I think ... heh-heh!

My daughter wanted to know how babies come out of their mommies’ bodies—the “regular” way (both my kids were C-sections). I used the v-word and she nodded all the way through and then said “I did not understand what you’re saying. You don’t make any sense.” Ouch—so harsh. Because, you know, I had taken in some caffeine by that point in the day.

Seriously, I admire your honesty.

Mindy, I’m gonna be honest with you (and the others) right now. I hope everyone has their big girl panties on.

People, you are TOO DAMN SENSITIVE!!

I am a mother, and you know what? What Mindy said wasn’t all that off base. It wasn’t an attempt to make child-less people feel small. It was an off the cuff comparison about LIFE. If you disect the crap out of it sure it sounds bad, but it was NOT the way she intended it to sound I’m sure.

Becoming a mother was one of the biggest changes I’ve ever gone through in my ENTIRE life. Having to take care of another human being, having to watch what I do, what I say, how I act…. For my life to no longer be my own, to have to stop before everything I do and think how it might involve another living being. To have a connection and a sense of responsibility over someone that you will never have with someone else…Yeah I have to agree, it made me grow up A LOT!

It is the kind of thing only a parent can understand. I’m sorry if reading that hurts someone’s feelings if they are not a parent. It’s not said to hurt anyone, it’s just the way it is. It’s not to say someone who is not a mother is a child or is immature. It’s not to say you are smalller or less of a person. It’s not to take away from all the growing up you’ve done in your life. It’s not to discredit a childless person in ANY way. But let’s be honest, It’s part of life.

No matter how mature you are or how grown up you are, or what things you’ve been through in your life, becoming a mother WILL make you grow up even more. A person without a child cannot fully understand this. You just can’t. And someday if/when you do become a Mom (if that is your desire and if that works. I know this isn’t easy for everyone) that weird part of your brain will click on in your head and you’ll realize “WOW, Mindy was right in a way and geez I was a giant asshole for being so mean to her for saying it. I get it now”

Being a mom does NOT make you a better person, but yeah it changes you. And I can understand how the girl/woman analogy fits. ESPECIALLY because she was talking to children, not grown ups. There are no proper words to label this change. I think Mindy was just reaching for something that was close enough to work. One of those “for lack of a better word” type of thing.

Mindy, you shouldn’t have to apologize. I think people overreacted. For some reason people thought you were attacking the childless, when that was not the case at all.

Everyone says becoming a parent will change your life forever. And every single mother and father who is pregnant for the very first time thinks they understand what that means. They tire of hearing it and they think “well DUH of course it will!” But it isn’t until you hold your baby in your arms that you realize what that statement REALLY means. If you are a woman trying so so hard to get there, I wish you the best. Keep pushing foward. It will be worth it. If you are a woman that has no desire to have children, then that’s OK too. I envy you in some ways, trust me!  We don’t all have to experience every single emotion to be whole people. A childless person is just as awesome as anyone else.

Well that’s my 2 cents. Sorry for it being so long. My comment is longer than your blog, but the “Mommy Wars” drive me crazy and I wish people would just get along and stop pointing fingers they way they do. Let’s all try to UNDERSTAND each other before we run off attacking each other. Mindy is a good woman and from what I know of her, she would NEVER intentionally hurt someone with her words in that way.

Mindy, you’d left an apologetic comment on my blog as well, and it wasn’t necessary. I’d read No Pasa Nada and was responding to her - but not with any sort of animosity towards what you’d said.

I assumed that you probably hadn’t intended the girl vs. woman bit to be taken the way it was. But the ensuing reaction opened up a can of truth for me - I’ve said similar stuff before (in a past post, linked to on my latest, I’d said that people without kids are f*cking pussies. I was only 72% kidding).

My point was not to counter you, but to rather say this: Parents shoot off at the mouth sometimes, and it’s not because we think we’re better or more enlightened or more seasoned that non-parents. It’s because with kids underfoot, we’re that much more profoundly afraid to suck. And so sometimes we say stuff that vents how suffocating that fear can be.

At the very most, your girl vs. woman thing could be taken as an expression of the shock, the weight of that responsibility. It doesn’t mean that people without kids are any less profoundly grown-up, or lacking in fundamental or formative experiences. I get that.

So. Just wanted to say - apology not needed. :) Soldier on, mama.

Don’t beat yourself up about it.  I totally understood what you meant.

“You may think you know your body before your pregnant and before you give birth but it’s not until you really see what it’s capable of do you realize what being a woman is all about.”

And in my post I pointed this out as well: What about those women who cannot get pregnant due to infertility, etc. or those who choose to adopt? Does that mean that they do not realize what ‘being a woman is all about’?

Yeah parenting changes you. DUH. But it isn’t the determining factor as to how much of a woman you are.

I still don’t think Mindy owes anyone an apology but it does strike me as odd that so many people really, truly think that giving birth is what makes you a ‘real’ woman.

Hey, and what about the dudes?

My post baby body is fatter, hairier and much sweatier than my pre-baby body. What did for me were the cravings… and the tattoos. Man!

I used to be a well respected, high flying, executive in a sharp suit; now I am a frazzled, down-at-heel, scruffy “dad” with frayed collars and stretch marks under my eyes.

It’s all about the women, isn’t it? Goirls/women gah.

I tell you, it is much, MUCH harder to pass a kidney stone. And frankly, no “boy” can call himself a “man” until he has had a camera (and other equipment) inserted where things should never be inserted WITHOUT a general and with an audience of nurses.

Trust me… I’m a full contact wrestler.

I actually have to comment on this at this point, because of Joy’s comment.

If giving birth makes you a real woman, then I guess I’ll never be a real woman, seeing as I am irreversibly infertile because of an autoimmune disorder.

Fortunately, I know that’s insane. I’m a woman because I have all the correct parts to be one. Because my body won’t let me produce babies, will I always be missing some essential piece of knowledge about my gender and femininity? No.

What I will be missing is the experience of giving birth. Which, while it must be utterly mindbending and lifechanging and magical and challenging, doesn’t make you more of a woman. It makes you someone’s biological mother. Which isn’t actually an inherently superior form of mother, since there are a heck of a lot of women who’ve done it who go on to do horrible things to their children.

Parenting, as Heather said above, makes a HUGE difference in ANYONE’S life, male or female. That’s not even up for debate.

But how you come to that role doesn’t make you more of a woman or more of a mother. Being a woman makes you a woman, and being a parent makes you a parent.

End of story.

And the reason women get up in arms about it is because this way of thinking is SO prevalent and pervasive and heartbreaking to infertile females, who some have the audacity to actually look down on, because we can’t form a child inside of ourselves, and thus “don’t know what our bodies are capable of.”

You know what my body is capable of? Months of nausea and hot flashes and daily migraines and rashes and backaches and fatigue and emotional rollercoasters because I had to take intensive hormones to cut down my cancer risk due to my disorder. And if I do have cancer one day, and have to give up some part of me that is inherently feminine, will I become less of a woman? No.

This body, this one that will never truly know what it is capable of, is one that my friends call “baby heaven” because every baby I’ve ever held for longer than twenty minutes falls happily asleep on my chest. Which has everything to do with my heart and my gentleness as my ovaries.

I guarantee you the children I will have someday, and the stepchild I will gain when I get married next year, will be as happy with me in their lives as if I’d given birth to them myself.

But it won’t make me more of a woman.

OH! I get it now. I didn’t even know what it was about. No harm no foul girl. I offend people on a REGULAR basis without ever meaning to. Truly, it’s a gift, welcome to the club!

People, you are TOO DAMN SENSITIVE!!

WOW Jennifer for someone who claims to be sick of MommyWars finger pointing that kind of dismissal goes a long way toward keeping the flames fueled. Essentially saying that feelings that differ from your experience, your opinion means those feelings are invalid and worthless, yeah. That’s the way adults converse. Except not.

Something was said, feelings were hurt and from that came several conversations on many different blogs. To sweep away feelings that you don’t necessarily agree with is exactly what keeps the barriers up and communication through the MommyWars difficult. You state that you agree with what was said and that is valid, if that is how you feel. Heather’s reaction and feelings are equally important and to minimize her hurt by calling her and others over-sensitive pretty well negates the premise that becoming a mother implicitly means maturation because there are few reactions that scream immaturity so much as, ‘‘I don’t agree so GET OVER IT!’’ ie calling those on the other side over-sensitive.

@Jennifer Suarez
I agree that the comment was blown way out of proportion.
Your comment though is misleading to children and seem purposely phrased to irritate other adults. I agree that differentiating between being a parent and being a person is important, but do not inform children that the only way they are women or men is to reproduce. Give them other options to mature rather than become responsible for a new life.
@Mindy
Thank you for your clarification.

I didn’t know you could pass gallstones… *reaches for Google

Hey zeno, I hear if you’re lucky, they let you take your stone home in a JAR!! It’s like an instant best friend.

Ok ew gross, never mind.

When I made the statement that “You may think you know your body before your pregnant and before you give birth but it’s not until you really see what it’s capable of do you realize what being a woman is all about” had nothing to do with the “mothering” aspect of being a woman.  Or the hot flashes and physical ailments caused by menopause or hormone therapies.  Or all the other trials and stresses women go through today.  I mean, one could say being stepped over on the corporate ladder because you’re not a man can make you feel like a woman. 

I’m sorry my statement was taken that way but if you simplify it, and NOT READ TOO MUCH INTO IT, it’s just physically true and not meant to be hurtful to those that can’t conceive.  My example of this is my very own sister who in her words said to me, “I will never know what it feels like”.  She was talking about he physical aspect of it, not the maternal aspect.  I understand fully or have as close to an understanding as I can get, standing by my sister through 10 years of hormone therapy, failed IVF and other horrifying things of that nature, that it’s a devastating thing.  I am full of tender apologies to those who ever have go through all that but I’m not going to deny that they very fact that I was able to give birth gave me a physical knowledge of my body that I would have never had otherwise.  It simply is.  But it’s not a slam to those who can’t.  I would NEVER do that to any woman.  And taking my statement to that degree is taking it out of context and putting words in my mouth that I would NEVER say. I spent almost the last two years worrying how my sister was feeling since I had my child and as she said, it’s the cards she was dealt in life and I shouldn’t feel guilty about it.

Joy, what you should say, then, is: “You have no idea what it’s like to give birth unless/until it happens to you.”

That would be absolutely true. Absolutely.

If I got a javelin through the head, I could say that I had physical knowledge of my body that I might not otherwise—namely, what my body does when a javelin hits me in the head. That would be some life-changing knowledge.

But *nothing* that happens to your body is the ultimate realization of “what being a woman is all about.”

Giving birth changes your life, yes, it provides you with a unique experience, it creates a profound physical difference from the before to the after, and it is a dramatically emotional experience. Of course.

No one is going to argue with that.

But the last part of your sentence implies that people who never give birth will never know “what being a woman is all about”, while you do, because giving birth is something you are capable of doing according to the genetic lottery.

I’m only taking you at your words. I simplified them right on down. And that’s what I took exception to. Giving birth didn’t give you any more concept of what it is to be a woman than I possess—it gave you an understanding of giving birth. And if giving birth is YOUR idea of what makes you a woman, that’s cool.

But it’s not the universal definition.

If we accept that a.) giving birth gives you a profound knowledge of what it means to be a woman, and b.) all mammals give live birth, giving birth gives you a knowledge akin what it is to be a cow. Or a lady rat. Or a girl llama. (but, sadly, not a platypus). They all know what their bodies are capable of, too! But I doubt they sit around thinking that makes them special.

If you define yourself solely for the physical feats that you can attain, you rank yourself no higher than a farm animal. Which, for a strong, proud group (grrr, motherhood!), is pretty sad.

Oo! Oo! I have an idea!!!

Here’s how we settle it: Let’s get a kiddie pool and fill it with Jello. We’ll all take turns wrestling one another, and the person with the most pins wins the title of “most womanly” AND (best part) they get a pair of fancy gallstone earrings to sport too. (minus Mindy’s sludgey ones of course)

Come on… who’s in?

Jennifer, I really don’t think there’s any harm in having a civil discussion about an issue that is far bigger than this blog. If you’ve been on the other side of this debate, you’d realize that the way people define words like “woman” or “mother” according to a specific set of experiences can be really damaging.

I haven’t seen any comments here that are abusive, but I wasn’t over at the other place where that may have been happening. I took exception to Joy’s comment, and I did it civilly.

As to your own comments, I don’t think anyone was denying that being a parent changes you or has a dramatic effect on your life. That would be pretty ridiculous. And no—you can’t know what it’s like until it happens to you.

But I think you’re confusing the concept of having a genetic ability with being a “woman” and gaining responsibility for a child with “growing up”. Some women can have babies, and some people grow up when they have kids, but a lot of women CAN’T have babies, and a lot of people remain sad, selfish idiots when they have kids.

There are no absolute continuums here.

And as a non-mom, I can’t really be part of any “mommy wars”. But in as much as you have the right to write about your experiences, so other people (if comments are open) have the right to comment on what other people write, in whatever way they see fit. If they’re abusive, then the author can respond however they wish.

But I don’t need a jello pool. I think my experience is worthy of words. And I’m tired of people not thinking through what they say in very public places.

Meg ~
I’ll put you down for NO Jello then.

Bottom line, the whole girl/woman sentence was a big misunderstanding. Mindy didn’t mean what some thought she meant. She apologized for any misunderstanding. She feels terrible that her words might have hurt someones feelings. I’m sure next time she (and hopefully others) will think before making a comment that might come out wrong. But we aren’t perfect and no matter what’s said it can be taken to mean almost anything - even something we didn’t intend.

Civil discussions are GREAT! Words? LOVE them. (no really, I do! Come visit my blog, you can see for yourself!)

I’m simply saying it’s time to lighten up and realize NONE of us (here at least) are trying to put each other down or hurt each other’s feelings.

Besides jello makes EVERYTHING better. Why do you think they serve so much of that crap at the hospitals?

Apparently I’m going to have to rephrase my original statement because, yes it is being pulled WAY out of context.  If you are to apply it to all situations and try to use it as a label, yes it can be taken as rather offensive. I’ll admit that. BUT, in this case, it was a few words tossed together to state how I felt about MY physical experiences and how I felt about how Mindy’s usage of the word “girl” did not offend everyone as she seemed to be feeling it did. Apparently my attempt to settle her woes opened a can of worms that never needed to be opened since my statement was directed to her and how she shouldn’t feel so badly because some of us did understand what she was trying to say.  But as to not offend and to again attempt to clarify the point I was really trying to make about, again, my own experiences, and not woman kind in general, and since my further clarification earlier didn’t seem to do the job, I’ll try again.  So, restatement (and this is how I feel about my own body and my own circumstances and not anyone else’s)  “It’s a highly feminine experience to give birth.”  Read that as you want but by no means read into it that I’m saying it’s the only feminine experience.  Otherwise, I’ll have to start talking about the first time my mom took me to by feminine hygiene products. 

Oh, and I like cherry Jello personally but I know that’s not the only opinion as what is the best flavor.  I’m well aware that others don’t like cherry but that doesn’t make them less capable of eating Jello.

It’s definitely a highly feminine experience to give birth. I don’t think anyone can argue that. And I do appreciate the rephrase, because it’s actually not anything like what you said in the first place.:)

The problem is far bigger than a comment on a blog, and the problematic philosophy is expressed in multiple places in multiple ways, all over the internet, every day. Including my inbox. I get a few emails every month expressing deep sympathy that I will miss out on being a “true woman”—quote, unquote.

As to today, though, I wasn’t trying to court controversy. The discussion upset a friend of mine, so I stepped in with my experience to address the issue.

I didn’t insult anyone, didn’t freak out, didn’t put Mindy down. That’s not me, to any degree. And if you read my blog or knew me, you’d see that needing to “lighten up” isn’t really an issue. But this stuff has led me on a tough journey, and I’m okay with expressing that seriously sometimes.

(Oh—I’ll ignore the little backhanded comment about Jello, because that says more about you than anything else you’ve said. :)

Peace. All is good. Your blog is great and we (my wife and myself), love it.
Don’t give up the URL and please keep on writing.

People need to come down… life is too short…

Bests from Spain, TFS

Um, ya the joke about the Jello was a JOKE!  And that does say a ton about me.  It was funny what Jennifer said and I appreciated the humor behind it.  And that little snip at me shows more about where your intensions are coming from.  That and the fact that you can’t understand, regarding this subject at least (and maybe you shouldn’t have to considering the personal troubles you’ve had with this subject, I’ll give you that much), the concept of lightening up.  But maybe at that point you should just leave it alone instead of feeling like you have to correct everyone who doesn’t check their “politically correct dictionaries” before they comment.  The original topic of the Momversation was about loving your post-baby body.  I’m sorry to say this but if you know your going to get upset about the topic than why did you put yourself in that position in the first place?  I was watching it thinking of cellulite and extra lumps and bumps, not woman’s reproductive health. 

Finally, if you feel the need to throw more personal daggers at me please don’t.  Keep them to yourself, they’re getting tiring.  I’ve tried to be understanding towards your way of thinking and how this all made your feel but you seem to have forgotten that I’m just as entitled to have an opinion and I have feelings too. I haven’t thrown any daggers your direction so please don’t send them my way anymore.

Sorry, Mindy.  I think this has gotten out of hand.  I’m done with this topic and I think this topic is done with this conversation.  If anymore daggers are chunked I’m just gonna duck.

Meh, a cow is a heifer until it has a baby.  Same difference.  I find it laughable that anyone was offended by that.  I’m with Jennifer Suarez up there… people need to harden the f—k up sometimes. ;)  Keep writing. I’m a non-mom who loves your blog (a lurkerer).

Mindy, thank you for dropping by my blog and for apologizing.  I’m sorry things have gotten so out of hand for you. 

For me, I think your statement was more of a “last straw” kind of thing.  It wasn’t just you. This issue has been simmering. There are things that I’ve been thinking about for years and Heather B’s post just said everything so well, that I had to respond too.  I think my post was respectful and hope that it didn’t upset you, but it was something that I felt I really needed to write.

@jennifer… lime. I’m in.

@mindy… the camera team? Not where you would expect.

Don’t get me started on the villanelles.

Okay, I totally got the analogy you were making on the video and didn’t think anything of it. In fact, I was just tell my husband the other day how much I’m dreading another c-section because of how gross I felt after the last one…

In fact I still don’t feel 100% right after the first one, and certainly not anywhere close to the sexy and GIRLALICOUS as I did before.

Your life (and your body) completely changes after giving birth. That was the whole point of the conversation, right?  So I totally didn’t get why so many people got all panties in a bunch over it. Argh!

Sorry for all the hate coming your way over this. You certainly don’t deserve it.

Wow. Just ... wow!

I can understand way some people might be really sensitive on this subject. I had 4 early miscarriages and I was, um, obsessed with getting a pregnancy to go full-term and deliver a healthy baby. Some days I hated anyone with a baby. Funny, because 5 years before that I didn’t think I wanted kids ever.

That said, peoples’ feelings do get hurt by things other people say, and usually it’s unintentional. I’ve been reading Mindy’s blog for many many years and have found her to be one of the most honest, caring, and funny persons I’ve ever been privileged to meet via online peeks into their life (hmmm, awkward, but I am hoping it comes across).

And, when she goofs, she owns it and apologizes. That is so rare, in my experience. By all means, carry on and discuss. But you might want to read back on this blog too, if you want to know more about this Mindy Hussy.

Mindy, I’ll admit that I was a little pissed when I saw the infamous Momversation video in question.  I chewed it over for a couple days and thought about leaving a comment on the site, but.. life happened, and I let it go.  I’m glad I checked back to see the end result; part of the reason I felt so angry when I heard what you said was that I respected your opinion and had a lot of admiration for your calmheadedness, and what you said seemed.. out of character, to say the least.

I know you’ve probably gone through hell about this, and I want to say that I’m proud of you for apologizing and trying to make peace.  I think we can all take some learning out of this—for readers who may have been turned off by your comment, even good, smart, intelligent people say not-so-great things sometimes.  For you—well, I’ll let you define it.

Be well!

yes, you need to try to relax :)